On Campus Podcast – The Engaged University: A Conversation with Elliot Felix

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1. Welcome and Season Introduction (00:00:09) Host introduces the podcast and the theme of the season focused on the engaged university.
2. Guest Introduction (00:01:12) Elliot Felix shares his mission of creating better-connected colleges and universities.
3. Elliot’s Background and Experience (00:02:26) Elliot discusses his involvement in student government and its impact on student success.
4. On-Campus Roles and Experiences (00:04:36) Elliot reflects on his on-campus job in the dining hall and its personal significance.
5. Barriers to Creating Engaged Campuses (00:06:43) Discussion on challenges like strategy, structure, and tradition in fostering campus engagement.
6. Understanding Student Engagement (00:07:12) Elliot explains the importance of connections among students, faculty, and community partners.
7. Challenges in Strategic Planning (00:08:08) Elliot critiques common strategic planning issues in universities that hinder engagement.
8. Institutional Silos and Collaboration (00:10:25) Discussion on how organizational silos impede collaboration and engagement in higher education.
9. Tradition vs. Innovation (00:11:20) Elliot emphasizes balancing tradition with innovation to meet evolving student needs.
10. Student-Centered Campuses (00:13:49) Exploration of what it means to be a student-centered campus and how to achieve it.
11. Role of Faculty and Staff in Engagement (00:17:29) Discussion on how faculty and staff can foster connections and support student engagement.
12. Empowering Faculty in Mentorship (00:20:12) Elliot suggests integrating mentorship into faculty roles to enhance student connections.
13. Physical and Digital Space for Engagement (00:21:06) Exploration of how physical and virtual spaces impact student engagement and connections.
14. The Five E’s Framework (00:21:33) Elliot introduces the Five E’s: entice, enter, engage, exit, and extend for student experiences.
15. Technology’s Role in Engagement (00:25:12) Discussion on leveraging technology to enhance connections without increasing complexity.
16. The Role of Technology in Campus Engagement (00:26:07) Discussion on how technology can enhance in-person connections and streamline campus activities.
17. The Doctor Pepper Club Example (00:27:16) A light-hearted example of informal student groups fostering connections based on shared interests.
18. Enhancing Classroom Engagement (00:28:18) Exploration of using real-time polling and campus apps to improve student engagement and interaction.
19. Utilizing Student Talent for Campus Projects (00:29:05) Encouraging students to apply their skills in creating campus apps for experiential learning.
20. The Importance of Applied Learning (00:29:49) Emphasis on hands-on experiences helping students build networks and skills effectively.
21. Insights from Writing the Book (00:30:40) Elliot shares inspiring stories and research findings that shaped his upcoming book.
22. Research on Campus Involvement and Giving (00:31:02) Discussion of studies linking student involvement to alumni giving and retention rates.
23. Impact of Residence Hall Design (00:34:15) How residence hall layouts influence student interaction and community building.
24. Advice for Campus Leaders (00:35:16) Strategies for leaders to enhance engagement and streamline processes within their institutions.
25. Emerging Trends in Education (00:38:48) The blending of academic and career development, creating a more integrated educational experience.

Ed Butch: Welcome to On Campus – with CITI Program, the podcast where we explore the complexities of the campus experience with higher education experts and researchers. I’m your host, Ed Butch, and I’m thrilled to have you with us today. Before we get started, I want to quickly note that this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not designed to provide legal advice or guidance. In addition, the views expressed in this podcast are solely those of our guests.

Welcome to season three of On Campus. This season I’m excited to center all of our episodes around the theme of the Engaged University. I’ll be joined by guests to explore how colleges and universities can foster student involvement both on and off campus with the goal of improving retention, boosting graduation rates, and shaping meaningful careers for their students.

The idea for this season came out of a discussion I had with today’s guest, Elliot Felix. He’s a student success author, speaker, and consultant, and the host of The Connected College Podcast and soon-to-be-released book of the same name. He also leads the higher ed advisory practice at Buro Happold, and he’s agreed to help me set up this season. But before we begin, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Elliot Felix: Sure. Thanks. Thanks. Glad to be here and so excited to have sparked what I’m sure is going to be an amazing season three. My personal mission is to create better connected colleges and universities. And what I hope is that students feel a sense of connection to their community, that they’re connected to the support that helps them not just survive college but thrive there, and that their coursework connects to careers so they find that sense of purpose, and they’re prepared, they’re ready, and they can have a rewarding and meaningful career ahead of them.

And that folks in higher ed are working even better together internally and partnering externally to make all that happen. And I really have come to that mission through my own experience. I like to say that I’ve been helping students since I was one. I was heavily involved in student government and was always trying to make things better for students. And you know that classic thing where they say how you spend time out of the classroom is as important as in the classroom, that’s very much true for me.

I got involved in student government at MIT in grad school, and we did a project that turns out to be not that different than what I do every day as a consultant to 100 plus institutions and have been able to help more than a million students. And when I was a student, I was able to help maybe a couple hundred students. We did town hall meetings. We interviewed students. We did a survey to understand how they were feeling, what was working, what wasn’t working.

We had sessions to brainstorm solutions, and then we took it all to the administration. The new dean was super responsive and we were able to really do I think a couple of amazing things. We got the pay for TAs doubled, because we did this benchmarking study comparing to other departments. We got thesis really celebrated as this capstone culmination as opposed to this afterthought.

And we even adjusted the scheduling grid to make it easier for us to cross enroll and take courses in other departments. So that was really a formative experience, and that’s not too different than what I do every day trying to help students and enable their success by helping universities and using my background so that we’re really understanding and then transforming the spaces they learn and live in, the technology they use, the support services they rely on.

Ed Butch: Definitely. Well, it’s interesting because obviously your experiences at, like you mentioned, MIT and I think at UVA has really shaped a lot of what you’re doing. But I’m also curious, before you got into your consulting work right now, were you in an on campus role as well or serving some on campus roles?

Elliot Felix: Well, the closest, I worked in the dining hall for a couple of years, but I never… In hindsight, I wish I had taken advantage and gotten involved as an RA or had some student affairs role because I think that would’ve also been a way to help people and learn things and develop my skills and be a leader. I probably would’ve learned quite a bit about conflict resolution that would’ve come in handy later in life.

But no, my only on campus job was really to pay the bills. Actually, it was also a bit of self-preservation, not just financially, but I had really severe food allergies and I have an amazing older brother who had the idea of, why don’t you get a job in the dining hall so that way you’ll get to know all the cooks? And so that’s what I did.

Ed Butch: Smart.

Elliot Felix: They were looking out for me and making sure I didn’t die and cooking special things that didn’t have all the myriad things I’m allergic to. So it was both money to survive, but also relationships to survive. And yeah, it turned out to be a good idea.

Ed Butch: Awesome. Very cool. So as I mentioned in the lead in, the third season here, we’re really focusing on the Engaged University and your podcast and your forthcoming book, The Connected College, is really about tackling the challenges of higher education. So what do you think is really the biggest barrier to creating an engaged campus and how do institutions really think about overcoming that?

Elliot Felix: Well, I think about an engaged campus as one where students feel those kinds of connections and faculty, staff, administration, corporate and community partners do as well. So I’m using connection and engagement somewhat synonymously. Is that a fair assumption?

Ed Butch: Yes. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Elliot Felix: I mean, because there’s the Gallup employee engagement where you’re involved in, enthusiastic about and committed to your work. There’s the National Survey of Student Engagement where you’re spending time doing the things that are correlated with your success, like talking to faculty outside of class or engaging, meeting with people that are different than you.

So for our purposes, we’re talking about that connectivity to the mission, to the community, to coursework, to career paths. I think with that in mind, I feel like maybe the three biggest challenges to creating those sorts of connections, strategy, structure and tradition. I think every university has a strategic plan, but very few have a strategy. Most strategic plans arr big tents that you try and fit everyone under, and they’re full of anodyne statements.

And I feel like if you write a plan that no one disagrees with, you don’t have much of a plan. Roger Martin, who’s a giant in the field of strategy, has this great thing he calls the opposites test. And for your strategy to be a strategy, the opposite of it must also be a strategy. So if your strategy is excellence, that’s not really a strategy because you’re not competing with a whole bunch of other people that are promoting mediocrity.

But if your strategy is to double down on health sciences for adult learners, that’s a strategy that’s the opposite of broad-based liberal arts for 18 to 21 year olds or national health sciences versus regional liberal arts or whatever it might be. So I feel like a lot of where institutions go wrong is they don’t have that focus, and so they get spread too thin. If there’s one thing I wish for universities, it’s instead of trying to do more with less, they should try and do less with more.

They could be more focused. And even though you have an access mission and you want to be all things to all people, you really can’t. So that focus I think really helps you create those connections and use the resources better. Then I think silos get in the way. There’s just a lot of… With any large organization, you end up with a lot of functional divisions and departments and everybody’s doing their own thing.

Everybody has great intentions. Lots of people want to work together, but they’re physically distributed or they’re using different tools, or they’re reporting to different people, or they’re not incentivized to collaboration and collaboration is hard. And then I think tradition gets in the way. President Michael Sorrell, the president of Paul Quinn College, has this amazing phrase, which is we have to stop being more in love with our traditions than we are with our students.

And I think traditions and the way we’ve done things and institutional inertia are really great in some cases. I mean, that’s what accounts for so much of the longevity of higher ed and the reason we have institutions in this country that have been around for centuries and in other countries that have been around for much more. But I think getting that balance of tradition and innovation right is really critical.

Ed Butch: Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s not something I guess that I would normally hear about and someone say when they’re talking in this arena. So I think that’s really great because you have to think that your customers, the people that you’re there for, the students, they’re changing. And so whether you want to change those traditions or anything, there’s going to be resistance and things are going to have to change along with the students and along with the outer world pressures and things like that as well. So that’s really interesting.

Elliot Felix: Yeah, and there’s going to be some things that don’t need to change. If you think about what employers want, certainly there’s new tools and new technology and new skills that are industry-specific and that are technical knowledge, but what they want no matter what are very durable skills around communication and critical thinking and collaboration. So there’s some things that change and then there’s other things that are quite constant.

And I think the barriers to engagement on… There are two sets of barriers right there. Institutional barriers that we just talked about, but I think students face specific barriers on their own. I think the biggest one is usually time or money. If you look at students that are going part-time, they’re way less involved because they have less time.

If you look at adult learners, they’re generally way less involved in, for instance, extracurriculars or clubs, activities in part because they have other responsibilities. They’re working full-time. I think you have to address the problem of engagement, both top-down and bottom-up from the institutional redesign as well as understanding students’ barriers and ways that they can get over around them.

Ed Butch: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think this leads into my next question, I guess, in terms of looking at the students and what they’re doing and that this engagement and connection really starts with the students. And something I heard on campus, at conferences, on webinars, all the time you would hear that, we want to be a student-centered campus, right? But what does that actually look like in action and how can schools really start to make that shift?

Elliot Felix: I mean, I think step one is having that ambition, which is great. So I applaud people for trying to be student-centered and student-first. And I think sometimes the best way to get started and to make it actually happen is to go one level beyond, because actually you can’t be student-centered without understanding students. So sometimes the first step is actually like, what do we mean by there is no one student, right?

Ed Butch: Right.

Elliot Felix: And so what are the actual segments we’re serving? And how do those different segments have different needs, have different motivations, have different expectations? So sometimes doing some design research, some user research, ethnography, whatever you want to call it, to understand your market research, to understand your audiences, your students, your customers is a great place to start because then you’re not talking in the abstract about some platonic ideal student.

You’re talking about real students with real needs, with real ambitions, with real anxieties. I think that helps a lot. So for instance, if you’re thinking about a returning adult, the way you’re student-centered for a returning adult learner might be very different from how you’re student-centered for a first time full-time, finding yourself, shaping your future 18 to 21-year-old.

So I would start with some segmentation, and then there’ll be things in common. In fact, we did a project for Portland State that started off, how can we serve adult online learners? And what was interesting is pretty much all the pain points they had were felt by on campus 18-year-old students about administrative systems and processes and digital sprawl. They just felt them more acutely.

You can segment, but a lot of times these things will also have common solutions. But it’s such a great starting point because then you’re not thinking in the abstract. It’s sort of like anyone who’s written a paper, if you have a really general thesis statement, you peter out pretty quickly. But if you make it specific, you can actually pull on that thread a lot longer just to mix metaphors there.

Ed Butch: So obviously the students are the reason that we work on campuses, so faculty and staff are there because of the students and what’s going on. So what do you feel like faculty and staff, how can they be collaborators and contributors in creating these engaged spaces on campus?

Elliot Felix: Well, I think I’m glad you asked about both faculty and staff because sometimes people hear engagement or student engagement and they think like, “Oh, student affairs needs to run more events and have more clubs.” And they could certainly do that, but I think faculty play a critical role too. And I think on the faculty side, things like mentoring students, things like serving as a role model, talking about your experience, how you got to where you are, where there were bumps and bruises along the way, where there were pivots.

I think what happens in the context of a course is so critical. That’s how students get connected to something they’re good at and maybe passionate about, and often the passion comes from the being good at. And that might be where you get introduced to your future career path. Finding a major, and I think you’ve had other folks talk about this on the pod, but finding a major is more than a major. It gives you focus. It ties you into a community, a sense of belonging.

And so faculty can be that spark. They can be that mentor. They can be part of that community and so much more. And I think on the staff side, it is about facilitating those connections, helping students find their people, supporting those groups of people with spaces and programming, advice, support, conduct, conflict, leadership development, personal and professional development. So I think there’s so many ways and so many roles that can be played.

Ed Butch: Yeah, for sure. When I was in on campus positions and things like that, I always made sure that I was looking at faculty and staff when I was thinking about a lot of these things. And one of the things for me, especially from the faculty side and then looking up to campus leadership, is giving the faculty the ability to be able to take some of that on, like the mentoring that you talked about and things like that.

Because in most cases, at least that I’ve seen, it’s not part of their tenure, if their tenure track is not part of their tenure process to be able to do some of those things. So I think making that part and working with their unions and things like that to make that part I think could be a huge help as well.

When you look at some of these things, space allocation is oftentimes brought up a lot about connections, whether that’s physical space on campus, whether that’s a digital space, you mentioned the digital group that you were looking at with some of your consulting, but I guess what does that look like in terms of connections for students and their engagement in terms of the physical and virtual spaces?

Elliot Felix: Well, I think there’s a great framework for, and I really hate the term framework, so there’s a great way to think about what an experience is that I think was, I don’t know if it was coined by, but it was certainly popularized by Conifer Research called the 5E’s, which is entice, enter, engage, exit, and extend. And I think that often gives people some concreteness when they think about what a student experience might be.

So it starts off, first, you have to get them there, and there might be digital and there might be physical, but I think that’s such an important step that people often skip. In fact, it’s the most skipped step. People just assume that students are going to show up to the thing that they’re doing. We’re a library. We’ve got these great books. We’re running this great leadership development program.

But first you have to reach them. They’ve got limited time. They’ve got limited attention spans. They may not know about you. So I think thinking about how you’re going to get them there and create that awareness I think is so critical. Then, how do they enter? Because I think that’s where people can get disengaged right away. Is this for me? Is this space for me? Am I welcome here? And there’s lots of ways to do that.

It can be about who invites you in, how you’re welcomed, how you’re greeted. It can be about the staffing. It can be about the signs and the symbols and the imagery in a space. It can be about where that space is and what that says. We do a lot of work with libraries. And it’s interesting, 10, 15 years ago, libraries started introducing makerspaces where students can do rapid prototyping, 3D print something, print a poster, a digital media lab to edit a video.

And initially everyone would say, “Well, why do we have this when we have it in the engineering school?” And everyone would say, “Well, that’s in the engineering school and not everyone’s going to go there. Some people, their ID card won’t even swipe into that building.” So I think just thinking about how people enter, who has access, who’s supporting it, who’s staffing it?

And then the interaction that happens once you’re in a digital physical space, who’s mediating that? Are they making it interactive? And that could be active learning in the classroom. It could be an event in the union. It could be an event online or a hybrid of them. And then thinking about how people leave that experience. For instance, if let’s say it’s a town hall meeting, are they leaving with a sense that they felt heard?

If it was an event, a brainstorming session or whatever, can they see their input? Can they see themselves in the outcome of what just happened, the performance, the presentation, the prototype, whatever it is? And then how do you give people a way to extend? When’s the next one? Where do they go next? How can they build on what just happened? So I think maybe think through the 5E’s as a way to get people digitally and physically involved.

Ed Butch: Yeah, that’s it. I have not heard of the 5E’s, so that’s really interesting. I really enjoyed that, definitely. And taking that a little bit, obviously talking about online spaces there and broadening that to technology as a whole, what do you see as the role of technology in engagement and connections and how do we use it to enhance rather than isolate?

Elliot Felix: Well, I think you start with the “do no harm” mantra. And I think there’s so much potential, but what happens a lot is technology is increasing the cost and the complexity. And I think digital sprawl is maybe not as apparent as physical sprawl where you can feel it based on a long commute. But I think there’s just a preponderance of tools that people have to use and they get more and more specialized, and they get harder and harder to be aware of, to navigate, to connect.

So I think when campuses can bring those tools together, create a new one-stop shop portal, create a campus app, use middleware to bring things together so people have to go to fewer places, I think that’s a great start. Use technology to do what complements other activities. I think about especially post-COVID or pretty much post-COVID, I never know what to say anymore, but I think about the role of the campus is to do what you can’t do or can’t do as well online.

Likewise, the role of technology should be to augment or to do what you can’t do as well in person. So I think interesting things like helping people discover each other, find some connections, find some topical connection in order to facilitate a meeting in person. It may be that you’re both interested in… One of my favorite examples of this, I’m on the board of the Art and Design College here in Minneapolis called MCAD.

And one of the things that I just found amazing was learning that of the many clubs, some of them are formal and some of them are informal. One is the Dr Pepper Club. It doesn’t have any big agenda. It’s just people that like Dr Pepper and want to occasionally come together and talk about it and drink it.

Ed Butch: All right.

Elliot Felix: It doesn’t take much. You just need something to talk about. You need some reason to get together. And I think technology can help all the people on a campus who love Dr Pepper find each other first digitally and then physically. I think that’s one way of facilitating those connections. And I think that there’s other things around making a classroom experience more engaging.

I mean, I certainly use polling, real-time polling, in a lot of my talks, and that’s a great way to engage audiences and students. And I think there’s also things where it can add this layer to make your experience in person better. People are starting to use campus apps to do geofencing so it knows where you are and send a push notification about something that’s nearby or someone that’s nearby, location aware kinds of features.

I think it’s a two front battle. One is first, simplify, streamline, consolidate, and then the other is provide a unique value by connecting people to each other, to content, and to opportunities.

Ed Butch: I love the Dr Pepper Club, although it would be ginger ale for me, but one of the episodes that I’m planning for this season is really focused on internships, externships, co-ops, and capstone courses. And going back to you mentioning how campuses doing apps and creating apps and things like that, but also utilize the students to give them that experience to help the rest of the population as well.

Use a computer science capstone course and have a design contest for a new campus app and let them present to the administration and everything like that. So use the people that are there and on campus to give them those experiences, right?

Elliot Felix: That’s a great idea. I mean, I think anytime people have a chance to apply what they’re learning, it’s so much more impactful and it gives them a chance to make an impact. Those are really great. I’m a huge fan of applied and experiential learning, and I think that’s some of how people find their people or find their program is through those hands-on learning experiences where you have a chance to make a contribution and build your skills and build your network all at the same time. And it’s often, as you’re saying, I think it’s an untapped resource, often an untapped resource.

Ed Butch: I want to go in and pull a little bit on, so you have The Connected College Podcast and the book coming out soon and I just am interested in learning, was there maybe an inspiring story or some insights that you really came across or encountered while you were developing especially I guess the book in this case?

Elliot Felix: Malcolm Gladwell just came out with his Tipping Point Revisited or Revenge of the Tipping Point, which on the 25-year anniversary. And I think one of the things that he does and Dan Pink and other authors do is they find these obscure research projects that have broader applicability, but not broader awareness. And I think one of my favorite parts of writing the book was stumbling onto a handful of those kinds of studies and hopefully spotlighting them.

You can’t do justice to the depth and the impact of these work that somebody spent years or decades on this. I’m talking about it in a sentence or a paragraph. If I can bring some attention to things that maybe more folks could use, that’s pretty fulfilling. And so there’s a bunch of those kinds of things in the book. I found somebody’s dissertation that showed the correlation… He studied a sample of 30,000 students and correlated alumni giving with campus involvement.

And just showing how if you were a varsity athlete, if you were in Greek life, if you were a campus, what did each of those do to your likelihood to give? So that was one of the really interesting ones. There’s another one, I think it was UT Dallas attendance at campus events and correlated that with retention. And it was like if you went to two events, you were like 22% more likely to retain from first to second year. So I think those kinds of things or…

From my first book, How to Get the Most Out of College, I found this great study about the kinds of goals that you set and how process-based goals are it turns out way more effective than performance-based goals. So if you say, “I’m going to get a B in calculus,” that’s more or less worthless. But if you say, “I’m going to do 10 practice tests,” you’ll actually do the 10 practice tests and that’s how you get the B in calculus, not by setting the… Or maybe even an A.

I found all these studies about the efficacy of residence hall design. And it turns out if you arrange the rooms along a hallway, which is the more traditional layout compared to a suite or an apartment, as you might imagine, it forces students out of their room and out of their comfort zone and creates what some call socializing architecture.

And in doing that, there’s actually good data that that drives increased interaction, higher sense of community, slightly higher GPA even. So I don’t know, that was maybe the most fun. It was like uncovering these things that not a lot of folks know about and hopefully spotlighting them for others.

Ed Butch: Awesome. That sounds great. I look forward to the read definitely. As we start to wrap up here, I guess, I’m interested if offering some advice. You’ve done a lot of this work throughout the years. Now you’re on book number two. You have your podcast. You do all of this consulting. You’re very busy. But I guess just a piece of advice to an administrator or faculty or staff member, your pick, onto what they could really do to create these connections and create engagement on campus. It’s a big question, I know.

Elliot Felix: It’s a great question, and I think the way I… The book has strategy and tactics, and the way I end the book I think is interesting in that it seems like it’s new advice, but a while back, there’s an organizational consultancy called August. And from them I learned about something that was written by the OSS, the precursor to the CIA, in 1944. And it’s called the Simple Sabotage Field Manual. So it’s 80 years old, but it basically has advice on how to disrupt an organization, like how to keep people from getting stuff done.

This is basically spies playbook saying, if you want to infiltrate an organization and keep them from making progress, these are the things to do. It’s things like make long speeches, refer back to things that were previously discussed, and keep unearthing, keep going back to previous decisions and questioning decisions that were already made, bring up irrelevant issues, haggle over the precise wording of things, do things like say that we should be cautious or reasonable, or talk about how risky things are.

And I feel like we got to turn that frown upside down. And I feel like the playbook for leaders is really to do the opposite of things. So when the structures, the committees are getting in the way, reorganize or find a work around like be concise and compelling, combine stories and stats. Think about each meeting you have with people not as a chance to mitigate risk and say no, but what can you say yes to. What can you keep moving forward? Help people focus.

When they bring up irrelevant stuff, you got to park that. When they’re referring back to old things, you got to deflect that. Keep things moving forward. And when people talk about the risk of change, you can talk about the risk of staying the same, which is sometimes the risk of not doing anything is much greater than the risk of doing the wrong thing.

So I think if leaders embrace those things, whether they’re in academic affairs or student affairs or senior administration or technology facilities, you name it, I think those are good strategies for success coupled with having a real strategy, not a strategic plan that’s a list of anodyne goals, but where you’re really making choices about what to do and why.

Ed Butch: Yeah, that’s great. I mean, that’s some good advice and not easy to take either, unfortunately, but that’s great. So last thing that I wanted to ask you, I always like to have our guests look into the future a little bit, and I really want to just get an idea from you, what are some of the emerging trends that you really see in education that excite you about the future of connections and engagement?

Elliot Felix: We live in an increasingly hybrid or blended world. Things that used to be separate are blending together. I think for so long, higher ed was defined by its silos and separations, academic affairs versus student affairs, or teaching versus research, or universities versus industries, or capital versus operational planning. You name it. There’s just a lot of divisions.

And I see a future where those things blend together, where undergrads are involved in research, and teaching and research blend together where academic affairs and student affairs work together on leadership development and career development.

And instead of you get an education or get a job, it’s both. And career development and exploration is blended into academics. I think we’re just going to have a more blended world, education and work blend together, whether it’s internships, experiential learning, co-ops. And that makes things a lot messier, but I think it also makes it a lot more meaningful.

Ed Butch: Well, I love that you mentioned a few of the things that I’m planning future episodes around, so that’s great.

Elliot Felix: My pleasure.

Ed Butch: Couldn’t have scripted it any better.

Elliot Felix: Either we’re both right or we’re both wrong.

Ed Butch: Right. Exactly. Exactly. That’s great. Well, thank you once again for your time today, for the conversation, and best of luck on the podcast and with the book and everything and everything in the future.

Elliot Felix: Thanks very much. And if folks want to check out the book and stay in touch, they can find it at ElliotFelix.com.

Ed Butch: I invite all of our listeners to visit citiprogram.org to learn more about our courses and webinars on research, ethics, compliance, and higher education. I look forward to bringing you more expert guests to discuss what’s happening on campus.